MMarketing Against The Grain
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07 June 2022

The CMO Show. How to Find One. How to Be One.

10Frameworks
14Insights

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Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster15:00

Developer Marketing Is Not Primarily a Positioning Exercise

Flow initially appears to need a product-marketing-first leader, but the hosts challenge that assumption. Developers are skeptical, functional buyers who care about whether a product solves a real problem, making peer trust, community advocacy, and distribution especially important.

  • Developers evaluate products skeptically and functionally
  • Category language matters less than solving a real problem
  • Peer recommendations can overcome inertia
  • Community can catalyze word of mouth
  • A community-oriented builder can later hire product-marketing expertise

They care, does this solve my problem? Does this make my life easier?

Kip Bodner · 17:00

Developers trust each other.

Kip Bodner · 17:00
#developer marketing#community#product marketing#word of mouth

Hot Take· 2

Hot Take10:00

Stop Designing the Org Chart Before Hiring the Humans

Kip argues that founders overvalue idealized organizational structures. Marketing responsibilities should flex around the strengths and learning capacity of excellent people rather than forcing every hire into predetermined functional boxes.

  • Do not begin with a rigid ideal org chart
  • Organize responsibilities around actual strengths
  • Allow unconventional combinations of skills
  • Account for a strong marketer's ability to learn
  • Align strategies to people rather than people to boxes

Things should largely be organized based on the people and the skill sets you have.

Kip Bodner · 10:00

And I feel like too many founders that I talk to want to have this perfect like box of their of the team and the…

Kip Bodner · 10:30
#org design#hiring#talent#marketing teams
Hot Take27:30

Do Not Obsess Over Hiring Only A-Plus People

Kieran rejects the idea that every company can reliably identify and recruit only elite performers. A more scalable advantage is creating an environment where capable people learn rapidly, improve, and consistently produce excellent work.

  • Interview processes cannot perfectly identify elite talent
  • Every company competes for the same supposed A-plus candidates
  • Learning culture expands the available talent pool
  • Leaders should instrument continuous improvement
  • Great work can be cultivated rather than merely purchased

Don't obsess around hiring A plus people.

Kieran Flanagan · 27:30

Create a culture where people can do A plus work, right?

Kieran Flanagan · 27:30
#hiring#culture#learning#leadership

Explainer· 4

Explainer05:30

Two Marketing Leadership Roles at Very Different Growth Stages

The hosts introduce Flow and Loyalty Lion as case studies for hiring marketing leaders. Flow needs its first marketer for a product-led developer platform, while Loyalty Lion already has a 10-person team and wants to increase inbound revenue substantially.

  • Flow needs its first marketing hire
  • Flow follows a product-led growth model
  • Loyalty Lion already has 10 marketers
  • Loyalty Lion generated 40% of revenue from inbound
  • The two roles require different leadership profiles

They're a PLG company, so they're gonna be bottoms up, and they are looking to find their very first marketing hire, right?

Kieran Flanagan · 06:00

They're generating 40% of their revenue from inbound. They did 70% year-in-year growth last year.

Kieran Flanagan · 07:00
#cmo#hiring#product-led growth#inbound marketing
Explainer08:00

The Four Capabilities Marketing Leaders Bring to a Team

Kieran divides marketing leadership strengths into builders, storytellers, operators, and leaders. Builders develop audiences and scalable playbooks, storytellers shape narratives, operators instrument teams and programs, and leaders hire, coach, and collaborate.

  • Builders create audiences and scalable playbooks
  • Storytellers communicate brand and product narratives
  • Operators create processes and operating models
  • Leaders hire, coach, and work across the executive team
  • A candidate need not be equally strong in every capability

So I have four distinct categories. What could a person be great at? I have builders.

Kieran Flanagan · 08:00

The third one is operators, right? You can excel at instrumenting operating models, how you scale teams, how you scale programs.

Kieran Flanagan · 09:00
#marketing leadership#team design#cmo#capabilities
Explainer13:30

Is Growth Blocked by Reach or by Market Perception?

The hosts distinguish businesses that need inexpensive access to many prospects from those that need credibility for large, complex transactions. Low-priced, high-volume models tend to be distribution constrained, while enterprise sales often depend on trust, safety, and perceived fit.

  • Distribution constraints limit inexpensive audience reach
  • Perception constraints limit trust and credibility
  • Low-priced products usually require broad distribution
  • Enterprise deals require confidence in security and compliance
  • Some early-stage companies face both constraints

The ability to grow is largely I need to reach a lot of new people, new businesses at a very low cost.

Kip Bodner · 14:00

Then you're largely perception constrained.

Kip Bodner · 14:30
#go-to-market#distribution#positioning#enterprise sales
Explainer32:00

First Principles Turn Ambitious Goals Into Clear Team Decisions

First principles give everyone a shared basis for deciding what deserves attention. Instead of treating every marketing request equally, the team defines a few truths—such as maximizing customer value or serving core audience topics—and uses them to prioritize work.

  • Shared principles clarify the joint mission
  • Principles help teams evaluate competing activities
  • Every role can use the same decision criteria
  • Strong principles connect differentiation to execution
  • Clarity becomes more important as the team grows

What you you need first principles to give clarity to a team.

Kip Bodner · 32:00

the more clarity you have about the joint mission you all are on together, the more you're gonna succeed.

Kip Bodner · 32:00
#first principles#clarity#prioritization#team alignment

Takeaway· 7

Takeaway07:00

Strong Job Descriptions Say Who Should Not Apply

Loyalty Lion earns praise for explicitly identifying candidates who would not suit its role. Stating incompatible backgrounds and decision styles helps candidates self-select and makes the company’s expectations more credible.

  • Describe disqualifying backgrounds clearly
  • Distinguish broad inbound growth from enterprise account-based marketing
  • State whether decisions must be data-driven
  • Use exclusions to improve candidate self-selection

They had these two things that would count people out. Like who are the types of people that this role is not for?

Kieran Flanagan · 07:30

If you are someone who makes most of your decisions through intuition and not data and hasn't worked with large data sets, it's really not…

Kieran Flanagan · 07:30
#job descriptions#recruiting#marketing leadership
Takeaway12:00

Strategic Priorities Need a Concentration of Resources

A company cannot claim community is strategic while scattering the necessary media, events, and content capabilities elsewhere. The hosts argue for concentrating organizational leverage behind the chosen priority instead of leaving a small team dependent on favors.

  • Identify what must excel during the next 12 to 18 months
  • Concentrate related capabilities in the priority team
  • Give the team authority as well as responsibility
  • Accept that other teams may need to request its spare capacity
  • Avoid under-resourcing a declared strategic priority

If you want to build a community, give it all the community, give them the leverage.

Kieran Flanagan · 12:30

Well, your macro point is if you want to accomplish something, you have to put the magnitude of force behind it, right?

Kip Bodner · 13:00
#community#resource allocation#organizational design#strategy
Takeaway18:30

Creative Builders Need an Operator Beside Them

As teams grow, builders inevitably inherit operating responsibilities that may not match their strongest instincts. Pairing a builder with a capable operator improves meetings, documentation, alignment, and execution without suppressing the builder’s creative strengths.

  • Growth forces builders to take on operational work
  • Builders may prefer creating over instrumenting processes
  • Hire an operator early when forming the team
  • Let the operator improve meetings and documentation
  • Use complementary strengths instead of demanding one perfect leader

One of the cheat sheets is if you are a builder, whatever role you take, always pair yourself with an operator.

Kieran Flanagan · 18:30

Like immediately the first hire I would make when building a team is a great operator who reports directly into me and can build all…

Kieran Flanagan · 19:00
#builders#operators#team leadership#execution
Takeaway24:30

Your Existing Marketing Team May Have the Right People in the Wrong Roles

A new leader pursuing major inbound growth must assess whether the current team has the necessary skills and alignment. The answer is not automatically to replace people; it may instead be to reposition them and add missing capabilities.

  • Assess the current team's skills immediately
  • Distinguish missing talent from role misalignment
  • Match people to the capabilities required for scale
  • Ensure inbound specialists can execute consistently
  • Make organizational changes before they become growth bottlenecks

It might be, but you might even have the right people, but they might be in the wrong roles.

Kieran Flanagan · 25:00

Where do I need to bring new people on to add the right skills that I don't have?

Kip Bodner · 25:30
#team assessment#inbound marketing#cmo#talent management
Takeaway30:00

A New CMO Should Listen, Validate, Then Find the Core Truths

The first phase of a marketing leadership role should combine conversations with teams, customers, and partners with quantitative validation. The leader can then synthesize recurring themes and reduce the growth problem to fundamental truths that guide strategy.

  • Begin with broad stakeholder discovery
  • Group observations into themes
  • Validate qualitative claims against quantitative data
  • Identify the irreducible truths behind the growth goal
  • Use those truths to focus marketing decisions

I want to talk to my team and my customers and partners, right?

Kieran Flanagan · 30:30

Oh, I heard this thing, does the data back it up?

Kieran Flanagan · 30:30
#first principles#discovery#marketing strategy#data
Takeaway34:00

CMOs Fail When They Promise Founders Everything at Once

Founders often want brand, product marketing, community, and growth simultaneously. A marketing leader must manage upward, define an order of operations, and explain why only a few priorities can receive meaningful attention at one time.

  • Founders may reasonably want many outcomes
  • The CMO must educate executives about tradeoffs
  • Prioritize one to three initiatives first
  • Set expectations without rejecting the broader mission
  • Maintain focus until the initial priorities have momentum

And I think the marketer's job is head of marketing job, CMO's job is to like really help them understand why you need to ruthlessly…

Kieran Flanagan · 34:30

But you can't do it all at once.

Kip Bodner · 35:00
#managing up#founders#prioritization#cmo
Takeaway36:30

Recruiting Should Feel Like the Marketing Role Being Sold

The candidate experience should embody the qualities the company expects from its future leader. An ambitious growth role needs ambitious outreach and a brand role needs a recruitment experience with creative credibility; otherwise the process contradicts the job description.

  • Align recruiting style with the role's expectations
  • Carry the job description's tone into outreach
  • Avoid generic recruiting for unconventional candidates
  • Treat every interview touchpoint as part of the candidate experience
  • Use a short list of concrete near-term outcomes

Candidate experience is just as important.

Kip Bodner · 36:30

You have to have the alignment for what you're looking for in that person and that candidate with the experience you're going to market through.

Kip Bodner · 37:00
#candidate experience#recruiting#employer brand#job descriptions