MMarketing Against The Grain
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24 May 2022

Leadership Lessons, Needing to Win, and Cards Against Humanity

10Frameworks
12Insights

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Frameworks in this episode

Insights & moments

The myth-busts, hot takes, explainers, and tools worth keeping.

Myth Buster· 1

Myth Buster16:00

Strong Execution Can Still Produce a Losing Result

The hosts debate whether leaders should obsess over outcomes or the process that produces them. Kieran argues that external conditions can change the game even when a team executes well, while Kip admits that judging only the final chart can erase months of strong work and useful learning.

  • Separate controllable inputs from uncontrollable outcomes
  • Assess whether the team executed its inputs to a high standard
  • Investigate whether the environment or rules changed
  • Do not discount valuable work solely because the final metric missed

You care about the inputs because you can't control the output all the time right

Kieran Flanagan · 16:30

And if it didn't win, I discount all of that work and that inputs.

Kip Bodner · 17:30
#execution#results#leadership#learning

Hot Take· 1

Hot Take15:00

Perfectionists Should Practice Doing Things More Sloppily

Kieran recounts advice from his acupuncturist to approach some activities more sloppily. The point is not careless professional work, but resisting the urge to research every new pursuit exhaustively and become exceptional immediately, leaving room for enjoyment and gradual learning.

  • Resist trying to become an expert immediately
  • Allow recreational activities to remain imperfect
  • Separate enjoyment from professional-level performance
  • Notice when perfectionism creates unnecessary effort

the one thing you should try to do is do things more sloppily.

Kieran Flanagan · 15:00

Like, how can I do this just because I enjoy doing it?

Kieran Flanagan · 15:30
#perfectionism#learning#mindset#enjoyment

Story· 1

Story27:00

Kieran Wins the First Marketing Against Humanity Game

The hosts play a marketing-themed version of Cards Against Humanity using prompts written by Kip and Kieran and questions selected by Hannah. The improvised answers range from CPC ads and ebooks to failed APIs and social-media GIFs, with Hannah judging Kieran the inaugural winner.

  • Kip and Kieran each prepared ten marketing-themed answer prompts
  • Hannah supplied the questions and judged each round
  • The game adapted Cards Against Humanity to common marketing situations
  • Kieran won the inaugural contest

We're each gonna read back what we think is our best answer out of the 10 that we have pre-written for this card.

Kip Bodner · 27:00

I would like to congratulate you on the inaugural Cards Against Marketing Against Humanity segment.

Kip Bodner · 33:30
#marketing#cards-against-humanity#game#humor

Q&A· 1

Q&A05:30

Must Great Managers Have Deep Domain Expertise?

The group separates people management from strategic leadership. A manager can support development, remove blockers, and track execution without having performed every role, but shaping strategy and solving difficult specialist problems generally requires substantial domain context.

  • People management and strategic leadership require different expertise
  • Managers can enable success without having held every role
  • Strategy requires awareness of possibilities and trade-offs
  • Technical credibility helps leaders solve hard problems and retain trust

Because like the core of management, right, is about like setting people up for success and servant leadership and helping people learn.

Hannah Fleischmann · 06:00

The building of that strategy and the leadership around that is very hard without deep expertise.

Kip Bodner · 06:30
#leadership#management#expertise#strategy

Tool· 1

Tool02:30

The Icebreaker That Asks What You Do Not Care About

Hannah shares an icebreaker that invites people to name a subject that simply fails to hold their attention. Unlike asking what someone hates, the question produces candid, low-stakes answers that quickly reveal personality and preferences.

  • Ask what people are deeply disinterested in
  • Distinguish indifference from active dislike
  • Use the answers to uncover unexpected personal preferences

One of my favorite icebreaker questions is to ask people, what are you deeply disinterested in?

Hannah Fleischmann · 02:30

Like it's not something you hate. It's just like, what is something that when people talk about it, like when people talk about it, you…

Hannah Fleischmann · 02:30
#icebreakers#communication#team-building

Takeaway· 7

Takeaway08:00

Why Rushing Into Management Can Stall Your Craft

Hannah describes moving from individual contributor to manager and director before deliberately returning to an individual-contributor role. Management developed her leadership skills, but it left insufficient time to deepen the writing and marketing craft she personally wanted to master.

  • Spend meaningful time developing your craft before leaving individual work
  • Recognize that management develops different skills from hands-on practice
  • Treat a return to individual contribution as growth rather than regression
  • Choose the path that supports what you currently need to learn

For me personally, I was a director, chose to move into an IC role again because I was learning a lot to help my team.…

Hannah Fleischmann · 09:00

I think if you really want to learn your craft, it is important to spend time as an IC.

Hannah Fleischmann · 09:30
#career#management#individual-contributor#learning
Takeaway09:30

Leaders Who Are Makers Still Need Time to Make

Kip argues that creative professionals may enjoy leadership while still needing protected time for hands-on work. People who identify as writers, builders, or creators should account for that need when designing their careers rather than assuming advancement must eliminate individual creation.

  • Notice whether making is central to your identity
  • Preserve individual creative time alongside leadership duties
  • Do not assume management must replace hands-on work
  • Use creative projects to continue honing your craft

I think that is extra true if you're a human that makes stuff.

Kip Bodner · 09:30

I think if you are somebody who in your soul likes to make and create, doesn't mean you shouldn't be a manager, shouldn't be a…

Kip Bodner · 10:00
#creativity#career#leadership#makers
Takeaway10:30

Living a Maximum Life Without Maximum Effort

Kieran applies a mindfulness idea to leadership: greater impact does not require maximum exertion on everything. He translates the idea into ruthless prioritization, ending ineffective work, and testing assumptions with the smallest reasonable commitment of resources.

  • Prioritize the work with the highest potential impact
  • Stop initiatives that are not working
  • Test uncertain ideas with minimal resources
  • Avoid confusing constant exertion with meaningful output

your goal in life, or this is the life goal should be to live your maximum life with the minimum amount of effort.

Kieran Flanagan · 10:30

And try to test things with the minimum amount of resources.

Kieran Flanagan · 11:30
#prioritization#mindfulness#leadership#efficiency
Takeaway12:00

Unnecessary Control Makes Leadership Harder

Kip identifies excessive control as a major source of wasted effort in work and life. Instead of remaining involved in every task, leaders should establish precise expectations, communicate clearly, and allow capable people to execute independently.

  • Identify responsibilities that do not require your direct control
  • Delegate to competent people
  • Set clear expectations before stepping back
  • Do not mistake involvement for effective leadership

The biggest way to maximize your life while minimizing effort is to relinquish unnecessary control.

Kip Bodner · 12:00

The job is to set very crystal clear expectations and communicate clearly, quickly, and then let that person go and do it.

Kip Bodner · 12:30
#delegation#control#leadership#communication
Takeaway14:00

Stop Reinventing the Wheel and Look for Leverage

Hannah recommends evaluating work through the lens of leverage: a relatively small input should generate a disproportionately useful return. Kip connects the failure to reuse known solutions with a desire to feel original, especially among people early in their careers.

  • Look for ways to reuse existing work and knowledge
  • Judge tasks by the return generated from the effort invested
  • Reserve original thinking for genuinely unsolved problems
  • Avoid rebuilding solutions merely to claim ownership

We're always reinventing the wheel.

Hannah Fleischmann · 14:00

I don't need to do that. Somebody else has already thought of that. I can just go use what they have done and then you…

Kip Bodner · 14:30
#leverage#productivity#originality#career
Takeaway18:30

Earn Strong Convictions by Exploring the Gray Area

Kieran and Hannah warn leaders against instantly labeling inherited decisions as right or wrong. Good judgment begins by understanding the history, constraints, and biases surrounding a problem; only then should a leader take a firm position and act decisively.

  • Delay snap judgments until the context is understood
  • Investigate why existing decisions were made
  • Recognize the experience-based biases you bring into a role
  • Build conviction after examining competing perspectives

trying to stop yourself from like going on either side of the argument and trying to spend time to really understand why things are the…

Kieran Flanagan · 19:30

good leaders have to have strong point of views. To get to strong point of views, they have to have all the context.

Kieran Flanagan · 21:00
#decision-making#bias#leadership#context
Takeaway21:30

Why Learn-It-Alls See Possibilities Experts Miss

The discussion contrasts the openness of a beginner with the narrow certainty that expertise can create. New challenges heighten attention and curiosity, while leaders who assume they already know the answer may reject ideas their teams could execute differently and successfully.

  • Approach familiar problems with renewed curiosity
  • Let less-experienced team members challenge old conclusions
  • Seek roles and projects containing genuinely new work
  • Value learning over proving that you already know

in the beginner's mind, there are endless possibilities, in the expert minds, there are a few.

Kieran Flanagan · 21:30

We want people who are learn it-alls, not know-it-alls, right?

Kip Bodner · 24:00
#beginners-mind#curiosity#learning#leadership